東京VS上海
Tokyo VS Shanghai
譯文簡介
有誰在這兩個城市都長期生活/工作過，請談談您的經歷以及您更喜歡哪個城市？
正文翻譯
Tokyo VS Shanghai
東京VS上海
Anyone who lived/worked long term in both cities care to comment on your experience and what you prefer in one city of the other?
I’ve been in SH for nearly 6 years and I’m at a point where I’m comfortable in regards to material needs and have a decent amount in savings.
After a 1 week trip to Tokyo and quite the cultural shock when coming back, I’m wondering if it’s time to thrown in the towel even if it means a possible pay cut and rise in life costs
有誰在這兩個城市都長期生活/工作過，請談談您的經歷以及您更喜歡哪個城市？
我在上海工作將近 6 年了，現在物質生活比較寬裕，也有一定的積蓄。
去東京旅行一周后，回來時受到了相當大的文化沖擊，我在想是否是時候放棄（上海）了，即使這意味著可能會減薪和生活成本上升。
I’ve been in SH for nearly 6 years and I’m at a point where I’m comfortable in regards to material needs and have a decent amount in savings.
After a 1 week trip to Tokyo and quite the cultural shock when coming back, I’m wondering if it’s time to thrown in the towel even if it means a possible pay cut and rise in life costs
有誰在這兩個城市都長期生活/工作過，請談談您的經歷以及您更喜歡哪個城市？
我在上海工作將近 6 年了，現在物質生活比較寬裕，也有一定的積蓄。
去東京旅行一周后，回來時受到了相當大的文化沖擊，我在想是否是時候放棄（上海）了，即使這意味著可能會減薪和生活成本上升。
評論翻譯
很贊 ( 22 )
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Aren't you the guy who used to rave about Shanghai so much, thinking it's the coolest city in the world? Unless I'm confusing names pretty sure I saw you a lot mocking basically anyone with criticisms.
What changed?
你不就是那個曾經對上海贊不絕口，認為它是世界上最酷的城市的人嗎？除非我把名字搞混了，否則我敢肯定我經?？吹侥愠靶θ魏螌ι虾Ｌ岢雠u的人。
怎么變了？
Been living a total of 7 years in SH. For me SH is the better deal.
在上?？偣采盍?年。對我來說，上海是更好的選擇。
My personal preference would be Tokyo (or Osaka or Kyoto). I may be speaking too much as a tourist but, despite some of the clear problems in Japan (bureaucracy, cash-based transactions, etc) I just like the environment and lifestyle in Japan more. I like the vibe in those places more. It's a little more diverse to me in terms of activities and what you can do. I like Japanese food more than Shanghai style food at the very least (although there are some varieties of Chinese food that really are just incredible).
I think despite its initial appearance of complexity, the Tokyo metro system is better than Shanghai's in comfort and in terms of all the places it goes to. Also beneficial - your Tokyo metro card will work in any other metro system in Japan which is incredible.
The cost of living is higher, sure, but like Shanghai, you can live frugally if you try, I've heard. Ultimately I just would prefer it - that could change if I end up living there though.
我個人更喜歡東京（或者大阪、京都）。作為一名游客，我的看法可能很片面，但盡管日本存在一些明顯的問題（官僚主義、使用現金交易等），我還是更喜歡日本的環境和生活方式。我更喜歡那些地方的氛圍。在活動和可以做的事情方面，我覺得日本更多樣化一些。至少比起上海菜，我更喜歡日本菜（雖然有些中國菜真的很好吃）。
我認為，盡管東京地鐵系統最初看起來很復雜，但就舒適度和通往的所有地方而言，它比上海的地鐵系統更好。此外，東京地鐵卡還可以在日本其他任何地鐵系統中使用，這也是非常好的一點。
當然，東京的生活成本較高，但和上海一樣，我聽說只要努力，也能過上將就的生活。歸根結底，我還是更喜歡東京--不過，如果我真的住在了那里，看法可能又會發生變化。
If the people were better China overall would outshine Japan.
Sadly the Japanese are simply better in terms of social aspects such as politeness, modernity, education, societal norms and behavior, etc.
The large majority of Chinese won’t change until the government actually does take action in reforming education and reversing the damage the cultural revolution has imposed upon the people.
如果中國的人民表現得更優秀，那么中國在整體上會好于日本。
遺憾的是，日本人在禮貌、現代性、教育、社會規范和行為等社會方面都更勝一籌。
除非政府真正采取行動改革教育，扭轉文化大革命對人民造成的傷害，否則絕大多數中國人是不會改變的。
i felt depressed in Japan: you need to behave very carefully to look like a Japanese
我在日本感到沮喪：你需要非常小心地表現得像個日本人
Oh man, Korea is MUCH worse for this shit. Nearly all human behaviour (except blacking out on the street) is a faux pas. Using your left hand, handing things to people with one hand, eating before the oldest person at the table, having long hair, drinking at your own pace.
唉，韓國在這件事上更糟糕。幾乎所有的人類行為（除了在大街上暈倒）都是錯誤的。使用左手、單手遞東西、比同桌最年長的人先吃東西、留長發、按自己的節奏喝酒。
Yeah Korea is fun but it's a lot more homogeneous in terms of how people dress and style themselves.
是的，韓國很有趣，但人們的著裝和風格更加同質化。
It seems every winter, the entire under 30 population of Korea has been told which down coat to buy, coupled with everyone having the same haircut (military bullshit). Of course, everyone is absolutely gorgeous due to their insane beauty standards.
似乎每年冬天，韓國所有 30 歲以下的人都會被告知要買哪件羽絨服，再加上每個人都留著同樣的發型（跟軍隊似的）。當然，由于他們瘋狂的審美標準，每個人看起來都絕對漂亮。
I had a camper van in Japan. Unreal. They actually take the toilets out of RVs here because you can always access a clean toilet no matter where you are.
Like literally middle of the night. At a random lakeside parking lot. Not a soul for miles. Bathroom with electronic sliding doors, fully clean and toilet paper stocked. WTF.
我在日本有一輛露營車。給人的感覺非常不真實。實際上，這里的人會把廁所從房車上拆下來，因為無論你在哪里，都能找到干凈的廁所。
比如大半夜，在一個無名的湖邊停車場，方圓幾英里都沒有人的地方，也有著帶電子滑門的盥洗室，里面非常干凈，廁紙充足。真是操了。
Almost like when you have a country of cultured, educated and relatively wealthy people, and they don't let tons of of trash into the country, that's what happens. Who would have thought you could keep your country neat with this simple trick?
Sweden could have been like that too. They went down a different route however.
當你擁有一個人們有文化、有教養、相對富裕的國家時，如果他們不讓成噸的垃圾進入這個國家，就會發生這樣的事情。誰能想到用這么簡單的一招就能保持國家的整潔呢？
瑞典也本來也可以這樣。不過，他們走了另一條路。
This .. japan is picky about the foreigner they let in and also many do not stay because of the strict work culture. I am honestly surprised I have lasted 10 years here but soon I will head to Shanghai
加一。日本對外國人很挑剔，而且由于嚴格的工作文化，很多人都不會留下來。老實說，我很驚訝自己能在這里堅持 10 年，但很快我就要去上海了。
I had a colleague who worked in Tokyo, Shanghai then Hong Kong. She was female and it was really tough working in Japan. The patriarchy is quite real. So you may need to account for that. She speaks English, Japanese and Chinese fine.
我有一位同事，先后在東京、上海和香港工作過。她是女性，在日本工作非常艱難。重男輕女的觀念非常嚴重。所以你可能需要考慮到這一點。她的英語、日語和中文都說得很好。
I know that isn’t very related with the questions, but I went to Tokyo, Sapporo, Fukuoka, Osaka and other places, but I have a feeling that Japan is like that hotel 5 stars from the 90’s. You can see that they where super rich, but now, it’s a little old, no renovation, with some abandon look. Sorry, just had this feeling during last week over there.
我知道這和主貼的問題不是很相關，但是我去過東京、札幌、福岡、大阪等地，但我有一種感覺，日本就像90年代的那家5星級酒店。你看得出他們曾經超級有錢，但現在卻有點老舊，沒有翻新，看起來有點廢棄的樣子。抱歉，我只是在上周去日本的時候產生了這種感覺。
Things are run down. Japan lives in Showa times.. sadly
一切都在破敗。日本生活在昭和時代......可悲可嘆
spent a good part of my childhood in Tokyo and have gone back a few times, I have to say I would much prefer Tokyo but I make way, way more money here.
In terms of bureaucracy and getting things done, Tokyo is marginally more difficult. Neither are friendly to foreigners though. Having to go through my friends to order certain things because I don't have the 18 digit ID card in Shanghai is just bs.
Other quality of life things are mostly better in Tokyo. I.E. Food quality/safety vs price, public transit, cleanliness, people in general, hygiene, internet freedom, ease of getting western things, price of luxury goods.
我的童年大部分時間是在東京度過的，也回去過幾次，我不得不說我更喜歡東京，但我在這里（上海）賺的錢要多得多。
在官僚主義和辦事效率方面，東京更難一點。不過，這兩個城市對外國人都不友好。在上海，因為我沒有 18 位數的身份證，所以必須通過我的朋友才能訂購某些東西，真的很扯。
其他生活質量方面，東京要好得多。例如，食品質量/安全與價格、公共交通、清潔度、人際關系、衛生、網絡自由度、購買西方商品的便利性、奢侈品的價格。
Lived in Tokyo for 2 years around 2010, Shanghai for 10 years until 2020, my brother still lives in Tokyo so I visit regularly. Tokyo feels like living in an airport or some kind of medical clinic. Whereas Shanghai feels like living in the wilderness that has been paved over but the chaotic nature of the wild hasn't gone anywhere - I'm talking about the vibe and feeling of the place, not necessarily the experience of living there.
In real terms though when it comes to living - they're both comfortable, safe, and convenient, with Shanghai being much more convenient (probably one of the most convenient places on earth - think Wall-E levels these days). Shanghai is good for making money. Tokyo is good for a more relaxed, family kinda lifestyle. If you're OK jumping through hoops to gain freedom with certain things like internet and visas etc, Shanghai can be great. If you're OK jumping through beaurocratic hoops with everything you have to do to live in a place, Tokyo can be great.
Chinese is easier than Japanese for English speakers so in that way Shanghai is better. Shanghai also has more options when it comes to food. Shanghai is more multicultural too. People speak better English in Shanghai but still not great so doesn't make much of a difference.
Having said all that if I could choose a place to stay it'd be Tokyo but that's just a personal preference.
2010 年左右在東京住了兩年，2020 年之前在上海住了 10 年，我哥哥還住在東京，所以我經常去看他。東京給人的感覺就像住在機場或某種醫療診所里。而上海給人的感覺就像生活在荒野中，雖然已經鋪好了道路，但荒野的雜亂無章卻絲毫沒有消失--我說的是這個地方給人的氛圍和感覺，而不是生活在那里的實際體驗。
實際上，就生活而言，這兩個地方都很舒適、安全、方便，而上海要方便得多（可能是世界上最方便的地方之一--有種《機器人總動員》里的感覺）。上海適合賺錢。東京適合更輕松的家庭式生活方式。如果你愿意為獲得互聯網和簽證等方面的自由而四處奔波，上海會很不錯。如果您可以忍受通過繁瑣的手續在一個地方生活，那么東京也不錯。
對于講英語的人來說，中文比日語更容易，所以從這個角度來說，上海更好。在飲食方面，上海也有更多的選擇。上海也有更多的多元文化。上海人的英語說得更好，但仍然不是很好，所以差別不大。
說了這么多，如果讓我選擇一個地方，我會選擇東京，但這只是我的個人偏好。
原創翻譯：龍騰網 http://www.gdsfy.cn 轉載請注明出處
I'm not sure I agree with this point. Japanese is more complex in terms of grammar rules and articles and particles and all that, I would say, but the difference in accessing the languages is substantial because of katakana and hiragana. It's a lot easier to learn more phrases and words and become conversational due to that. Once you learn the katakana / hiragana it's fairly easy to start deciphering stuff and you can even become pretty conversational / somewhat with just those. Chinese you can really only learn through sheer effort and memorization. I think lower levels of Chinese are maybe easier in terms of the basics but becoming an advanced, fluent speaker and reader (more this) of Chinese is extremely difficult.
“中文比日語更容易?！?br /> 我不太同意這一點。日語在語法規則、冠詞和助詞等方面更為復雜，但由于片假名和平假名的存在，兩種語言在使用上的差異是巨大的。因此，學習更多的短語和單詞以及會話要容易得多。一旦學會了片假名/平假名，就可以很容易地開始破譯一些東西，甚至只用這些東西就可以很好地進行會話。中文真的只能通過純粹的努力和記憶來學習。我認為較低水平的中文在基礎知識方面可能更容易，，但要成為一個高級的、流利的中文使用者和閱讀者（更多的是這個）是非常困難的。
I'm with you on most but food wise... c'mon. Without a doubt the best food establishments in Asia are in Japan. You name any cuisine and the Japanese do it, and do it better, including Chinese food. I won't forget how I was in Kyoto in a French restaurant and I asked if I could see the chef. They took me to the back and not a single foreigner was there. They had 1 star.
China sure you got a ton of regional foods available, most soso in Shanghai in all fairness, but nothing really outstanding. Not going to argue against eating it but when it comes to food, whatever you want, Japan will win hands down.
我同意你的大部分觀點，但美食方面......拜托。毫無疑問，亞洲最好的餐飲場所在日本。你說的任何美食，日本人都會做，而且做得更好，包括中國菜。我不會忘記在京都的一家法國餐廳，我問能不能見見主廚。他們把我帶到后面，那里一個外國人都沒有。而且他們只有一顆星。
中國當然有很多地方美食，平心而論，上海的食物大多很普通，沒有什么真正出色的東西。我不會反對去吃它，但說到吃，無論你想吃什么，日本都會勝出。
原創翻譯：龍騰網 http://www.gdsfy.cn 轉載請注明出處
Currently in Shanghai, came here from Tokyo. Shanghai is far and away the better place to live, unless you absolutely need/want the following things:
full internet access without a VPN
decent public manners
a car enthusiast scene
buy a property
-Lower levels of air pollution (China overall has gotten MUCH better in this regard over the last 10-15 years)
Cheap, modern public transit; a 21st century payment structure, a digital ecosystem; a top notch international manufacturing logistics network, great and inexpensive public transport; down to earth, friendly people that often speak decent English, and abundant public seating spaces: these are some of the many things that Shanghai has, but Tokyo DOESN’T.
Shanghai is still rough around the edges in comparison yes. But getting literally anything done is a million times easier in Shanghai compared to Tokyo. Try to change/get anything done in Tokyo? Whether banking, online order returns, getting around, renting an apartment, or anything, dealing with these things in Japan is like trying to pull teeth from a skunk. With rabies.
Tokyo’s best days are a solid generation behind it. It’s declining, and even from young people, there’s no push towards change. They’re still living in 1997, and it shows that the Sakoku policy still lives on in the mindset of the Japanese people, and you won’t change that. There’s a reason your average Japanese has worse English ability than the average North Korean.
Tokyo, for me, was absolutely NOT worth the hype. For a week? All you’ll see is the superficial, the good stuff. But to live there? Glad i did it, but never again. The hype has enabled Japan to better hide its deep structural problems from the outsiders than anywhere else. But that’s not saying much, because even in Japan, it’s still easy to find.
So enjoy Japan for what it is: a good tourist destination that is a bit out of date in the way they do things. But enjoy even more going back to where you live
If the itch to move is strong though, have you considered SE Asia or the Mediterranean at all?
目前人在上海，是從東京來到這里的。上海遠比其他地方更適合居住，除非你對以下東西完全無法割舍：
1. 無需 VPN 即可完全上網
2. 體面的公共禮儀
3. 汽車愛好者
4. 買房
較低的空氣污染水平（在過去的 10-15 年里，中國在這方面的總體情況已大為改善）
廉價、現代化的公共交通；21 世紀的支付體系、數字生態系統；一流的國際制造業物流網絡；便捷、廉價的公共交通；樸實、友好、能說流利英語的人們；豐富的公共座椅空間：這些都是上海擁有而東京沒有的。
相比之下，上海確實還很粗糙。但與東京相比，在上海做任何事情都要容易得多。試著在東京改變或完成任何事情？無論是銀行業務、網上退單、出行、租房還是其他任何事情，在日本處理這些事情就像是在給臭鼬拔牙，而且是得了狂犬病的那種。
東京在最好的時代有一群實干的人在支撐。它正在衰落，即使是年輕人，也沒有改變的動力。他們還活在 1997 年，這表明鎖國政策在日本人的思想中依然存在，你無法改變這一點。普通日本人的英語能力比普通朝鮮人還差，這是有原因的。
東京，對我來說，絕對不值得大肆吹捧。一個星期？你看到的都是表面的、好的東西。但要住在那里？我很高興曾這么做過，但再也不會去了。對日本的炒作使日本比其他任何地方都能更好地向外人隱藏其深層次的結構性問題。但這并不能說明什么，因為即使在日本，問題還是很容易被發現。
因此，請盡情享受日本吧：這是一個良好的旅游目的地，但他們做事的方式有點過時了?；氐阶约荷畹牡胤?，會更有樂趣
如果你搬家的欲望真的很強烈，是否考慮過東南亞或地中海地區？
Putuo
OP just wanted to whine and moan and you came and laid down some real knowledge.
樓主只是想抱怨抱怨，而你卻來了，并提供了一些有價值的訊息。
原創翻譯：龍騰網 http://www.gdsfy.cn 轉載請注明出處
Good to hear from people who has really know both places.
But yea, always heard from people who lived in Japan that it's not a happy place to live for work. Maybe if you retire spend a few months there traveling around then it must be nice.
很高興聽到真正了解這兩個地方的人的意見。
不過，我總聽在日本生活過的人說，在那里工作生活并不快樂。如果你退休后在那里住上幾個月，四處旅行，也許那里會很不錯。
Former resident
I’ve been told by friends that it is much much much more difficult to make Japanese friends vs Chinese friends - at work, school or just in mutual interest organizations.
朋友們告訴我，在工作、學?；蛟诠餐娼M織中結交日本朋友比結交中國朋友要困難得多。
It is hard because most foreigners need to learn Japanese to make friends. I speak Japanese have made friends and connections here but japan is over hyped up. I love it here but ready for China. Salaries are low
很難，因為大多數外國人需要學習日語才能交朋友。我會說日語，在這里結交了朋友和人脈，但日本被過度吹捧了。我喜歡這里，但已經準備好去中國了。這里工資太低。
Public tranportation is excellent in Tokyo and not that expensive tbh
東京的公共交通非常好，而且價格也不是很貴
Would you say it’s better than Shanghai though? I certainly would not.
你覺得它比上海好嗎？我當然不會。
Lived in both cities and personally transit feels significantly better in Tokyo but then again it has had several decades on Shanghai in terms development. Shanghai’s pace of improvement is bananas and it is genuinely shocking how fast they can put a line in.
The Kanto region is just a lot easier to get around than Shanghai but throw in affordable taxis and share bikes for the last mile and things start evening out.
I give the edge to Tokyo on transit but not necessarily on mobility.
我在這兩個城市都住過，個人感覺東京的交通狀況要好得多，但東京的發展比上?？炝藥资?。上海的發展速度令人驚嘆，他們能以非?？斓乃俣蠕佋O一條線路。
關東地區的交通要比上海方便得多，但如果在最后一英里的路程上算上經濟實惠的出租車和共享單車，情況就會趨于打平。
在交通方面，我認為東京更勝一籌，但在流動性方面就不一定了。
Tokyo is considered to have better public transport than Shanghai while Shanghai is not massively behind Tokyo
東京被認為比上海擁有更好的公共交通，而上海并不比東京落后多少
But 3X the price. Also their shared bikes aren’t convenient. Shanghai metro plus shared bikes wins for me. Ended up walking A LOT in Tokyo
但價格卻是上海的3倍。而且他們的共享單車也不方便。上海地鐵加共享單車對我來說是贏家。我在東京走了很多路。